Note: This is a computer-generated transcription. If you find any error, please signal it to andrea.rota@ikos.uio.no
The names of asylum seekers used in the interview are pseudonyms.
Andrea Rota: Hello everyone and welcome back to the IKOS – Religion & Politics podcast. I am Andrea Rota and I'm joined today by Olav Børreson Fossdal. Olav recently obtained a master's degree in the study of religion at the University of Oslo and he is looking forward to new opportunities in this field, hopefully pursuing a PhD in the near future. In his master's thesis, Olav analyzed the role of material objects in the conversion process of asylum seekers, with a particular focus on Iranian asylum seekers in Norway converting to Christianity. Some of his findings have been published in a book chapter in the forthcoming edited volume Asylum and Conversion to Christianity in Europe. Olav, welcome, it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast.
Olav Børreson Fossdal: Thank you so much for having me.
Andrea Rota: The status of asylum seekers and the process leading to it are often the object of controversial debates in the public sphere. However, not many people can claim to grasp their intricacies. In your work, you have focused on a specific aspect, namely the role of religious conversion in the treatment of asylum cases. Why is it important to study this issue and how have you approached your research field?
Olav Børreson Fossdal: Well, studying the role of religious conversion in the treatment of asylum cases I think holds great importance, particularly in the context of political and juridical discourses. Asylum seekers' situation often involves complex issues of identity and persecution, making it essential to understand how secular states, like Norway, navigate these intricacies. The decisions made by the justice department, the immigration offices, the appeal boards and courts have normative implications, directing effectively the lives of individuals seeking asylum. This topic should therefore not be limited to scholars alone, but I think it should interest every citizen in a democratic state. It sheds light on how a nation addresses and upholds its values for justice and for human rights and the inclusivity for those fleeing persecution. Understanding the complexities of asylum cases and the consideration of factors like religious conversion allows us to better be informed and to participate in public debates with empathy and with insight. Moreover, assessing asylum cases is inherently political and decisions can be influenced by the prevailing political leadership and also the broader geopolitical context. For instance, the recent events in Afghanistan and the war in Ukraine illustrate how international crises can impact these assessments. Also, when it comes to asylum seekers coming to Norway. Therefore, in my research primarily, I approached this field from the perspective of religious conversion studies, but I soon realized that exploring the official assessments of conversion cases also had a broader implication from a migration study standpoint. And by adopting this multidisciplinary approach, I aimed to gain a comprehensive understanding for the factors involved and contribute to a more informed and nuanced discussion on asylum policies and practices. Overall, studying the role of religious conversion in asylum cases is vital to understanding and ensuring a just and more compassionate approach in granting or denying individuals asylum in our democratic state. It invites citizens and scholars alike to engage with these complex issues and promote a more empathic and informed society, in my opinion.
Andrea Rota: I understand. Thank you. In your work, you focused on asylum seekers from Iran. What was the reason for focusing on this specific group?
Olav Børreson Fossdal: The reason for focusing on asylum seekers from Iran specifically is because it represents a unique and complex situation, right? Because unlike some countries where being a Christian is illegal, in Iran it is not forbidden by law to be a Christian, right? However, the problem arises from outward and vocal mission activities initiated by certain churches and certain congregations within the country, which then again can lead to negative attention from the regime and thus limit religious freedom. The situation for Christians in Iran is not uniformly dangerous. It varies depending on the specific context of the individual convert. While some cases have shown that Christian Iranians have faced imprisonment and torture, it is not an automatic consequence for all converts seeking asylum in Norway from Iran. And this dynamic nature of the situation in Iran means that Norwegian immigration authorities have to very carefully assess each case to determine the risk faced by the asylum seeker upon returning to their home country. And some individuals might be able to return without facing persecution or harm, while others could come in grave danger due to the political and religious climate in Iran. And therefore, studying asylum cases of Iranian converts sheds light on the complexities of religious freedom and persecution in the country. It allows researchers and policy makers to better understand the challenges faced by Iranian asylum seekers and make informed decisions regarding their protection and well-being in Norway.
Andrea Rota: I would like to move the discussion to issues of methodology now. The analysis of religious conversion narratives is a well-established and well-known research field in the study of religion. Nevertheless, in your work, you sought to improve the existing theoretical instruments by focusing on the material dimension of religion. Could you please explain us what you mean by material religion and how this dimension plays into the conversion process?
Olav Børreson Fossdal: Yeah, absolutely. In my research, I looked at the concept of material religion, which refers to the physical stuff and tangible aspects of religious practices. You know, things like symbols and objects, artifacts that the believers use to show their religious identity and to engage in religious rituals, practices, and their daily lives. And basically, religions are these cultural traditions that, along with the beliefs in something divine, have led to the creation of physical representations of their faith. And people use these objects to visually express their religious beliefs and also as part of their religious practices. And when it comes to religious conversion, this material dimension becomes really interesting. As people go through the conversion process, they interact with these religious objects in new ways, and it can tell us a lot about their transformation and their journey. And it's surprising, therefore, that material aspects of religion are overlooked in theoretical discussions about religious conversion. Maybe this is because the field has been mostly dominated by psychological perspectives that focus more on the internal thoughts rather than the external expressions of religious experiences. Therefore, then, including material dimensions in the study of religious conversion helps us to understand how people express and experience their newfound beliefs through tangible things. It adds depth and it adds sort of a richness to our understanding of religious conversion, and it gives us also a new way to explore the connections between belief, practice, and the physical expression of religion.
Andrea Rota: In your work, you write that agency is attributed to a particular object during the conversion process. Could you tell us a concrete example from your data?
Olav Børreson Fossdal: Absolutely. In my research, I discovered that objects play a significant role in the religious commitment and conversion process of an individual. For instance, when I conducted my interviews, I noticed that some converts decorated their homes with religious symbols and objects, like home altars and shrines. And these objects serve as a visual reminder of their religious values, of their religious beliefs, and helping them sustain their religious commitment to their newfound faith over time. One of my interviewees, Ali Reza, showed me a picture of an altar in his home. It had various objects symbolizing the last days of Jesus' life from the New Testament, you know, with the thorn crown, the pouch of silver coins, communion cup, and a frame note that said, he did it for you, referring to this Christian myth. The shrine served as a reminder of the essential Christian myth of the New Testament, and it resonated with Ali Reza's own life, he told me. His experiences of betrayal, of violence, and torture that was all due to his conversion to Christianity in Iran, it sort of linked very well with the biblical narrative of Jesus, he thought. So, this is an example of the religious commitment that can be physically portrayed. Another example then is another informant who I called Sirus, whose first encounter with Christianity was sparked by curiosity when he visited a church in Iran, and he was drawn to the unique practices and material culture of the Armenian Christian space, that is one of the Christian denominations common in Iran. Such as the church building, you know, the candles, the pew benches, the altars, the music and the cross, all was in this space. His physical surroundings played a major part in his initial interest and liking for Christianity rather than a deep theological understanding or intellectual properties of the religion. And I think both these examples show that encounters with religion can be influenced not only by intellectual aspects like dogmas and values, but also by the physical surroundings and material culture of religious spaces. So, objects can shape and form individuals' perceptions and experiences of a new religion during the early stages of conversion, providing a different perspective on how religious knowledge is assessed and acquired.
Andrea Rota: In fact, in your work, you emphasize that the relationship to materiality in religious conversion narratives is not static, but evolves along the conversion process. How should we understand this dynamic dimension?
Olav Børreson Fossdal: Yes, the dynamic dimension of the relationship to materiality in religious conversion narratives unfolds throughout the conversion process, evolving and transforming along the way. An illustrative example is the significance of the Bible for Iranian converts. During the initial stages of conversion, the Quran holds a dominant position within the Iranian cultural framework, and making the possession of other religious literature, like the Bible for instance, appear very unconventional and potentially unacceptable. So, in my interviews I encountered instances where a convert exhibited first skepticism and reluctance towards the Bible when they first encountered it. For instance, one informant, Mariam, and her family, although not particularly religious at the time, they attended a birthday party at an evangelical Lutheran church in Norway, and to ease their anxiety as such, they agreed to accept the Bible as a gift, but intended to discard it or throw it away afterwards. And this reluctance was not rooted in the content of the Bible, which is very important. They were not familiar with the content of the Bible at all at this point, but rather the association with Christianity, which is what was a bit critical. And even after the Bible is in the convert's possession, the feeling of reluctance transitions to a sense of secrecy, and converts begin to treasure the Bible as a true authority and a teacher, but they keep it hidden from their social environment, and they are aware of the potential negative reactions from family members and others. They discover it, for instance Mehdi, upon receiving his first Bible from a Christian in Tehran, felt compelled to read it in solitude, and keeping it secret to avoid the severe consequences associated with possessing a Bible in Iran. And this transformation from reluctancy to secrecy highlights the dynamic nature of the relationship with material objects during the conversion process. As converts engage with religious texts, like the Bible, they develop a hunger for theological knowledge and spiritual fulfillment, and the act of reading the Bible becomes a deeply personal and transformative experience, potentially challenging the cultural norms and context that surround the convert in Iran. And to sort of draw this back to Norway, for asylum-seeker converts, this secrecy may persist even after arriving to Norway, where they live in reception centers and fear negative reactions from other asylum seekers, or even possible repercussions if their conversion becomes known in this milieu. And this dynamic interplay between material objects, cultural context, and personal spiritual journeys shapes the conversion process and reflects the complexity of religious identity formation and integration with new environments. So, I think overall, the evolving relationship with materiality in religious conversion narratives showcases how objects hold profound and symbolic power, and are instrumental in guiding the convert's spiritual journey as they, you know, navigate the intricate dynamics of faith, and culture, and of personal belief.
Andrea Rota: Yes, thank you. I note that you mentioned the social context in your last answer, and I was curious to know what role the political and religious context of Iran plays in the conversion process of Iranian asylum seekers in Norway.
Olav Børreson Fossdal: Yes, the religious and political context of Iran plays a crucial role in shaping the conversion narrative of Iranian asylum seekers, and there are several factors. One of them is the dominance of Islam. Islam holds a dominant cultural position in Iran, and you know, the regime, it paints a picture of the country as being very religiously homogeneous, you know, 99% of all Iranians are Muslims. And this cultural dominance of Islam, it creates a context where adhering to Islamic practices and norms is expected and seen as the norm. Iranian converts to Christianity often experience pressure to conform to these expectations, and possessing religious literature other than the Quran can be perceived as a rupture with the accepted norms, like I mentioned earlier. Another factor in this contextual framework is the limited religious diversity in Iran. While Iran has a long history with Orthodox Christianity, with Syrian and Armenian Christian denominations and communities, these groups are closely tied to specific ethnic religious identities and are not outwardly attempting to convert other Iranians. And this can create a barrier for Iranian asylum seekers seeking to explore Christianity openly, as they may be denied access to these spaces due to fear of negative attention from Iranian officials. And there is also an element of challenging the regime. The converts I interviewed identified as Protestants and were critical of the Iranian regime. Their conversion to Christianity and critical stance towards the regime do not align with the regime's limited perception of religious diversity and religious expression. As a result, they may face social and political challenges in their home country, which can influence their decision to seek asylum in other countries as well. For some Iranians, conversion to Christianity represents a form of discontinuity with Islam and can take physical form, such as not wearing the hijab, not participating in Islamic practices like fasting during the Ramadan. And this shift is not necessarily rooted in a profound belonging to Islam before the conversion process started. Instead, it can be a way of expressing a new Iranian national identity that departs from the conventional sort of Iranian identity markers and a reflection of their rejection to the regime, both in cultural and religious ways. And just to sum it up, you could say that the religious and political context in Iran exerts significant influence on the conversion narrative of Iranian asylum seekers. It shapes their relationship with religious literature, their identity formations, and their desire to seek alternate paths, if you will, that challenges the dominant cultural norms. And understanding these contextual dimensions is essential for comprehending the complexities of religious conversion and the individual motivation behind these transformative journeys.
Andrea Rota: Thank you so much for summing up so clearly such a complex picture. Now your work offers an important analytical contribution to the study of religious conversions, but also has practical implications. What recommendation do you have for immigration authorities in light of your findings?
Olav Børreson Fossdal: You know, focusing on materiality is important because there are material dimensions to all religions and converts relate to some form of material culture during their conversion process. And you know, in Norway, asylum seeker converts have been given an enhanced right to have their cases processed by appeal boards, UNE specifically. And the reason for this is because of challenges of fact-finding and evidence these authorities face when handling cases. And then as research on this topic continues to increase, it is, I believe, paramount that immigration authorities stay open to adapt new perspectives when processing these types of asylum claims. It is not enough for authorities to simply consider materiality when assessing a claimant's credibility. They must also pay the appropriate attention to the aspects of materiality and use this information to inform their evaluations. One specific thing I would like to suggest is employing photo elicitation interviews as a method in conversion cases. Photo elicitation is an interview method in which photographs are being used as an alternative avenue for conversation. Photo elicitation can be used as part of an asylum interview, especially in the face of the interview where the theme for the asylum is being considered. When protection in Norway for reasons of religious conversion is relevant, officials are greatly concerned with the role and the task and the level of activity the applicants have in their religious community. Informants and applicants I've read about both report that they have brought images to these interviews. These photographs show the converts when conducting various practices and activities and has mainly been used to support the overarching conversion narrative. These are concrete examples of evidence of valid claims of religious conversion and should at least be considered in a total assessment of the case. The thing about these types of images, however, is that they are part of the individual's conversion process and therefore part of a narrative that the convert themselves present. In other words, the photographs become a contemporary story about converting to a religion, but from the convert's perspective. I therefore suggest that immigration authorities should consider using photographs when conducting asylum interviews. One way to do this is to compose a series of photographs that contains images of Christian material culture. As part of a larger line of questioning, the photographs can become part of the interview and the asylum seeker can be asked to reflect over the motifs that the pictures show. I used this method myself to collect the empirical data for my research and I think I gained valuable insights that shows the potential of studying conversion through material objects. I think therefore that it is a method that could also become an integrated part of asylum interviews conducted by immigration authorities. And there is another reason for employing this method, I think. A recent report that studied the quality of asylum interviews in Norway pointed to something very interesting, I think. It pointed to the differences in ways in which asylum seekers managed to formulate their own stories. Quote unquote bad interviews versus quote unquote good interviews are very dependent on a group of factors like cognitive functions, the level of ability, trauma, if they are analphabetic, or other culturally specific factors. And all of these factors can play a part when someone is trying to formulate a story like a conversion narrative. Using photos in this sort of interview environment can have the effect that the respondents use other avenues to answer questions from the authorities. And photographs can be a way of thinking differently. For some it can be easier to reflect, associate, interpret, and describe the content in a visual motif. This then becomes more a conversation with one's own memories and with one's own experiences and it can evoke other emotions than speech-based interview does on its own.
Andrea Rota: Very interesting. Thank you very much. Thank you all for sharing your insights with us on the podcast.
Olav Børreson Fossdal: Thank you.
Andrea Rota: This is all for this issue of the podcast. I would like to remind our listeners that our guest today was Olav Børreson Fossdal, a former master's student in the study of religion at the University of Oslo and hopefully soon a PhD candidate at the same institution. You can read more about his findings in the article mentioned in the notes to the podcast. Goodbye.