Karin Kukkonen
Literature makes you feel, and it can get you thinking too. But how do you move from signs on a page to thoughts and feelings? And why does fiction sometimes feel more real than the world around us? My name is Karin Kukkonen, and together with my colleagues from the Literature, Cognition and Emotions project, LCE for short, we will discuss these and other questions in the coming weeks. Today's guest is Halvor Eifring. He is a professor in Chinese, and our topic is literature, meditation, mind-wandering, attention and all things in between. Welcome to the podcast.
Halvor Eifring
Thank you.
Karin Kukkonen
You have published a book last year, which is called The Power of the Wandering Mind. Could you say a little bit more about what the wandering mind is, and where its power lies?
Halvor Eifring
Yes. The wandering mind – I think we all know it, because it's there for us every single day of our lives. It's the thoughts that come and go spontaneously, the feelings that come and go spontaneously, and all the images that also run through our heads. Sometimes, when we would like to think of something else, at other times, just when we relax and this happens to us, while we are walking outside, while we are meditating, while we are doing dishes or whatever. So it's anything that spontaneously runs through our minds. And the power of it, I think, lies in the fact that it has, well, many different functions. It makes us really relax. It also makes us, perhaps, work through things that otherwise would have gotten stuck in our heads. If you've had a quarrel with somebody, you're very likely to think of that quarrel afterwards, spontaneously. And gradually, the sort of the grip that quarrel had on you will loosen up, and you will relax more again. And so in this book, what we do is to see how this part of our human mind also helps meditation, because very many people think that when you meditate, you should empty your mind of all sorts of thoughts, and that's not the case in this form of meditation – at least in nondirective meditation, the wandering mind is an integral part of the technique.
Karin Kukkonen
So the idea is to let the mind go for a walk, so to speak?
Halvor Eifring
To let the mind go for a walk, yes. And in order to do that, you also need to do something – in a way – actively. It's not as if you just open up, the mind will go for a walk by itself. Then it will begin to hesitate. It'll begin to stop and it will avoid some... paths and go into other paths, unless you are able to also give it some extra stimulus, this kind of wandering mind, mind wandering.
Karin Kukkonen
So you see meditation, since you mentioned that, as a way of guiding the mind in its wandering?
Halvor Eifring
Not guiding in the sense of guiding the content. The content needs to be absolutely free, but guiding in the sense, or rather stimulating in the sense, that it sets this part of the human mind free, so that it is able to unfold on its own, without you interfering with it. That's more or less the point.
Karin Kukkonen
So it's, yeah, letting the mind off the leash, so to speak?
Halvor Eifring
Yes, absolutely.
Karin Kukkonen
You're interested in meditation and mind wandering, and you're also a professor of Chinese, so I wanted to ask about the links between that. Is this something that's especially relevant for the Chinese context?
Halvor Eifring
I don't think it's especially relevant for the Chinese context, but there are things in the Chinese contexts that are relevant for this. And there are things in Western contexts that are also equally relevant. So I think in the Chinese case, one thing that is of interest, to this part of the mind, is that in the – say – the classical Chinese era, when all the sort of Confucius and all the philosophes came up, more or less at the same time as they did in Greece and in India, then they were not particularly concerned with thoughts that came and went, but they were very much concerned with feelings, emotions, which also sort of come and go spontaneously. And at least at the outset, they were quite positive to this part of the human mind, because it was seen as, sort of, a part of human nature. And human nature was something very basic that we needed to develop, that we needed to give a place in our lives, until one particular philosopher came in and said that human nature is evil.
Karin Kukkonen
And who that?
Halvor Eifring
It was a guy called Xunzi or Master Xun, who argued against another philosopher in Mengzi, Mencius, who had said the opposite, that human nature is good. And this human nature issue was something very central to Chinese philosophy at the time. But, in general, human nature was seen as something very basic, something to be strived after, and emotions and all these spontaneous things were part of what then needed to be given leeway.
Karin Kukkonen
And it seems to be that... I mean, these discussions that you describe between, you know, nature and spontaneous thoughts and feelings, that come and go, as being something good for us — Or something not good, depending on your position. I mean, that discussion is in a way still going on, isn't it, around mind wandering around?
Halvor Eifring
I think it is absolutely still going on. And also in relation to mind wandering, both during meditation and outside meditation, and during the reading of literature and outside the reading of literature, as you know. And of course it is because there is some kind of ambiguity here. That, in a way, this part of the human mind may disturb you, if you want to concentrate on something, lock all other things outside of your mind. It may come in, and you may think of things that's not that we would like to think about now — "I have to read, I have to prepare for my exam, I have to whatever". So in that sense, of course, it may be disturbing, but in general it is probably more disturbing if you try very actively to push it away, because then it will keep coming back. Rather than if you let go of it, and — sort of — don't try to subdue it or suppress it all the time, because then it will be... There was an Indian philosopher, I think in the 11th century, who said that you have to treat it like a sexually aroused elephant. If you... if you try to control it, subdue it, it will become very dangerous, whereas if you let it have its will, then it will become sort of meek and mellow – and no problem at all. So it's a very special, quite a special, analogy, but still, yeah hm.
Karin Kukkonen
So you need to let the elephant off the leash, in order to develop this picture that we have going. I'm also thinking about, I mean, your book engages also with the psychological and the cognitive research behind that, and of course, that's where these debates are going on, too. There's a sort of landmark article with the title of "Wandering Mind as an unhappy mind", but that position has been shifted, hasn't it?
Halvor Eifring
It has absolutely been shifted, and much of the research behind that particular article has also been refuted. So, of course, there may be unhappy thoughts in your mind when you let it go freely, but there is no indication that you are anymore unhappy when the mind passes free or has these thoughts, than when you are concentrated. Though, it may be that when you are unhappy, there will be a tendency for you to let your mind wander, in order to make up for these unhappy thoughts through fantasies or whatever.
Karin Kukkonen
And that's not a bad thing.
Halvor Eifring
That's not a bad thing at all. That's like reading a novel.
Karin Kukkonen
I was about to go there, yeah. I mean, in your book you talk about this non-directive meditation as a way of watching the wandering mind sort of unfolds its potential, but it seems to me that many of the things that you describe, like for example, you know, you get away from unhappy thoughts or thoughts that occupy you too much. You do that, of course, also with reading literature, where you can again... You know, you sit down, you're quiet, your mind gets away from what occupies you here and now, and I think it's also a productive process. So, I was wondering if you could say a little bit more about how this nondirective meditation might compare to something like literary reading.
Halvor Eifring
I think there are many parallels. I think when you read, at least if you read a good book, you tend to be absorbed and sort of drawn into the novel – or whatever it is – spontaneously. Not because you sort of concentrate actively on it, but because you are drawn into it. There's something in it that makes you absorbed, and I think in meditation there's something similar. In the case of meditation, there is no particular content that you are to focus on. The thoughts that come are the thoughts that come, whatever they are. But this process also, somehow... when you relax in meditation, you also, sort of, tend to become more absorbed in wherever you are. And so this absorption is one thing. Another thing is, I think, the activation of all these spontaneous thoughts, and what the neuroscientists call the default mode network of the brain – the part of the parts of the brain, the network in the brain – that tends to be activated when we relax, when we don't have anything else particular to do. I think, also, if I'm not mistaken, at least some types of literature also activate that part. Also, meditation – at least nondirective meditation – very much activates that part. And communication, good communication between human beings, also activate that part. So this is an area of the brain that's very important for us, that may be seen as what the name indicates, so as the sort of default way of functioning. That is, whatever we do, sort of on purpose, comes on top of that, and therefore...
Karin Kukkonen
So the default is like a default setting in the machine that... If you don't change it, then that's what it will do.
Halvor Eifring
Exactly, and I think for literature to sort of catch our minds, it needs to tap into that part of the mind, whether it's through feelings or thoughts or images or whatever.
Karin Kukkonen
Or all of that.
Halvor Eifring
Or all of that, all of the above! And that's exactly what makes us so absorbed in literature. And I think also in meditation, in good communication, we have the same thing that it activates, these sort of more basic things inside us. And the deeper you go, the more that activates a sort of deeper – if you like – direction in your life. So it's not as if this is entirely directionless, but the direction comes – basically – from within, although, of course, when you read literature, it's stimulated from the outside. But at the same time it activates whatever is in you.
Karin Kukkonen
Yeah, because – I mean – readers do have quite different responses to the very same book. So there must be something deeper, as you put it.
Halvor Eifring
Yeah, exactly. I think also that's one of the reasons why some books, novels, or whatever, feel a little constructed. They don't tap into this part as easily as other things. They are... The author has thought too much beforehand, and wants to construct something that he or she thinks is good literature, but which fails to sort of tap into that part of the mind.
Karin Kukkonen
So explicit rules and guidelines are actually not a way of getting at that.
Halvor Eifring
No, absolutely not. I think good authors have... of course, they may have external guidelines as well, but they don't let those guidelines – sort of – rule out the movement of the mind or the spontaneous movement of their mind. They need to sort of follow some kind of spontaneity. And that's, I guess, also one of the reasons why so many authors say that they don't know what their work is about. They don't know – when they start – what it is going to be about. They have to follow some kind of inner... I don't know, impulse.
Karin Kukkonen
Nondirective writing...?
Halvor Eifring
Yes, nondirective writing. Although they spend a lot of time – sort of – working on the sentences, in order for them to accord with that kind of inner impulse. So, it's not as if it's just sort of writing out your inner thoughts there and then in literature, but it needs to sort of tap into that part, and to somehow accord with that part of the mind.
Karin Kukkonen
And that also, I assume, takes time in the writing process itself. It's like with meditation – from what I understand – this is not something that you learn in a day course.
Halvor Eifring
Yeah, no, you learn it in a course that takes several days, but... But in both cases, there is a long term process – and, in a sense, a process that never ends, where you get at more of what is in your mind as you go along. One Chinese poet, Wang Wei, who wrote, in a way, in a sense, very natural poetry – poetry that was both close to external nature, and that was supposed to be sort of close to our internal mind... He is also known to have spent quite a lot of time on every single sentence, so that a four line poem had to be exactly what he wanted it to be, before he could let go of it. But he didn't construct it in a thought-oriented way. He sort of felt when it accorded with some of these natural directions of his mind.
Karin Kukkonen
And I guess that's something many authors talk about as well, that there is this moment when you sort of know that this is it, or this is as good as it's going to get now.
Halvor Eifring
Yes. When you write literature, there is another thing that... I mean, I suppose some writers, especially nowadays, write about themselves explicitly, and that's one genre. But I also know that there are many writers, who, while they are being extremely personal in what they write about, they never mention themselves. They never use their own names. They always go through other persons and sort of project – if you like – their own feelings, their own reactions into those other persons, and there may not be one particular person, in that novel, that is... sort of represents the author. But the author's inner conflicts, if you like, may be represented in some of the structure of the whole novel.
Karin Kukkonen
Or multiple characters struggling with each other.
Halvor Eifring
Yes, and I think that is, in a way, very similar to what you may say happens in a more – sort of –psychodynamically-oriented therapy session, where the free associations may, on the surface, be very far removed from the actual life of the patient in that case, but they may have a sort of basic structure that reflects some of what is the deeper issues at stake for the patient. So, this structural thing is also quite important, that... You see, again and again, that the content – this also applies to meditation – the content is a fairly superficial thing. Many of the deeper issues come or are exposed through the structure of how different types of impulses stand up against each other, how they develop in or in relation to each other. And that may happen in your meditation, even if it's everyday thoughts about what happened at the office today. And the same, I think, goes for the therapy session, I'm sure, and for much of the novel also. That some of the deeper issues come out much in the underlying structures of the novel, just as much as through the actual interaction between the characters in the novel.
Karin Kukkonen
Yeah. And of course this structure is something that, I mean, as you read... And if we're talking about a long novel, it would be a long Chinese novel...
Halvor Eifring
I can mention one, if you like, in a moment.
Karin Kukkonen
... as you do that, of course – I mean – you won't be able to read that in one sitting, so you have to come back to it. And I guess also what happens in between your reading sessions, that... so it's not just while you read, that the mind does things spontaneously, and you have, I don't know, certain associations, particular characters, but also in between reading?
Halvor Eifring
Yes. And the degree to which you identify with the characters – or see that character as being your mother or your father or whatever... All of this sort of sets the process going that may go on for days, weeks, months, years. So which is interesting...? I mentioned a very long Chinese novel – many Chinese novels from the what we call the late Imperial era are extremely long – and this one, which I have devoted some time to, is... the best English translation of it is called The story of the stone. And you have to read the best English translation by David Hawkes, because it's so much better than some of the other translations. It's a piece of art in itself, and I don't think you would read it in one sitting. It is...
Karin Kukkonen
How many pages?
Halvor Eifring
It's published in five volumes, and each volume is about 525 pages, so I think you would spend a little time on it.
Karin Kukkonen
... Summer holidays...?
Halvor Eifring
Yes. And the author, Cao Xueqin, was a person who was born into one of the richest and most powerful families in China. But when he was probably 13 years old, they lost absolutely everything. The things they had were confiscated by the Imperial throne. And then the translator, David Hawkes, was professor of Chinese at the Oxford University, but he gave up that position and went till the earth instead, in order to have time to translate this novel. So, in a way, both are a little – or quite – special human beings, and at least in the latter case, since I knew him, David Hawkes was a very nice person as well. And an extremely good translator, in the sense that he gets all the meaning of the words and at the same time is able to recreate this as literature – in its own right – in English.
Karin Kukkonen
So this would be a reading recommendation?
Halvor Eifring
This is definitely a reading recommendation. The story of the stone. Penguin.
Karin Kukkonen
The story of the stone. It seems to me, I mean, from the way in which you talk about meditation and mind wandering, but also literary reading, that this is something that's very difficult to get at with traditional psychology method – the kind of studies, that conclude that the wandering mind is an unhappy mind. They don't look at phenomena like that.
Halvor Eifring
They don't look at phenomena like that. But you can say that, in the 1890s you had, on the one hand, in America, the stream of consciousness – which came up as stream of thought – as an important concept, and tried to look more realistically at what is actually happening in our minds. And at the same time, in Europe, you had Freud with the free association, which was used as a kind of therapeutic method, but also scientific method for investigating what goes on in the mind. So in that period, in fact, you had this as a quite central issue, in at least parts of the psychological milieu. Then, I guess, during the 20th century, it maybe left the centre of attention, and came back again with the discovery of this default mode network around 2000. So, I think now, after that kind of discovery and the discovery of a few years later, of what happens in the default mode network, is so tightly knit to all the thoughts that come and go in our minds. I think that makes it a much more interesting subject for research and scholarly attention these days.
Karin Kukkonen
And I guess something else that's going on today is this feeling, that we're not in control of our attention anymore, so the whole debate around social media and digitization.
Halvor Eifring
Yeah, yes. Yes, and that is interesting too, because in one sense, some people seem to say that the mind wandering is what is happening when we are all the way in our telephones, or whatever, all the time. But that's exactly the opposite, in a way – because then it's something external that draws our attention away from ourselves, which is the opposite of what's happening when we either meditate or read a good novel, or do other things that stimulate the – sort of – internal process of spontaneous mind wandering. So, I think in that sense, the – what they call them, weapons of mass distraction – iPhones, or whatever, are something that works in the opposite direction of what we are talking about here.
Karin Kukkonen
It seems to me – from the way in which you describe it – it's a very short leash. If it is mind wandering, it's mind wandering on a very short leash. So it's certainly much better to read...
Halvor Eifring
Yes, yes.
Karin Kukkonen
... The story of the stone.
Halvor Eifring
That's a very long leash!
Karin Kukkonen
Yes, or to meditate, indeed, yes. Thank you so much for this excellent conversation on mind wandering, meditation and literary reading.
Halvor Eifring
Thank you.
Karin Kukkonen
And thanks to everyone for listening to the LCE podcast. Our next episode will air in about 2 weeks – until then.